14 Responses

1. Sam Atwood

   August 8, 2007 at 02:38

   1

   Great thoughts Josh! And no, you’re not the only one who wonders how he can do certain things in the name of Jesus (such as write a sociology essay on “What creates meaning?”). I suppose it is the fact that, although this essay might be complete rubbish in light of the Kingdom and I may not feel like lifting a finger to do it until extraordinarily close to the due date, I should work hard at it, and do so as if for the Lord.
   I don’t know about you, but thinking about that certainly brings to mind about a bazillion things in my life that I don’t do, am lax about, don’t see the point of that need my attention. Christ demands my whole life (even the sociology essay).
   And as for your opening comment about crossing, it’s a shame they miss the idea behind the cross of grace, not works…

   (P.S. We looked at that part of Colossians in our uni small group, and I can’t help but sing Brad’s tune of 3:17)

2. Chris Macgeorge

   August 8, 2007 at 10:26

   2

   When I was a young mum – a long time ago!!! – I was challenged to wash and hang out nappies in the name of Jesus. It did help me to put that small, but necessary(!) task – and a gazillion others – into the much bigger picture of living the life God gave me. Uni essays? Zoom out and look at why God has placed you at uni …

3. Andrew Cork

   August 9, 2007 at 01:59

   3

   Hey Josh,
   I have been thinking about many similar things lately.
   I think perhaps in the Sydney Anglican church (and perhaps other churches) has created a model for life where you are either living and working for God all the time (ie. full time ministry) or only part time. That is, if you are working in the ‘world’ you are only able to give the remainder of your life (spare time, time spent at church, ministry time) or the fruit of your work (money, skills outside of work) to God.
   Surely this is not the biblical perspective. We are called to honour God with our whole lives 24/7, regardless of where we work. We can be a witness and a tool for God wherever we are.
   Imagine the impact our church could have for God if we all felt empowered to live for Him in all circumstances, not just in the remainders of our lives?
   This is clearly a huge and real issue for many people and I think this is certainly something that needs to be addressed.
   Thoughts?

4. Josh Maule

   August 10, 2007 at 01:57

   4

   Hey Cork, I think you’re right about the ministry/remainder of your life thing. It would be really good if we tried to live for God at all times not just the Friday nights, or Sunday nights when we’re youth leading or at church. And not just in structured ministry. If we really try to honour God wherever we are I think part of that will be working hard – as I’ve said in this article – but another part is praying for, and looking to evangelise wherever we are.

   It would be a shame if we saw opportunities to serve and honour God only exisiting outside of what we do during the week. Not every Christian can be in full time ministry, but every single Christian can be a full time witness and evangelist, and a full time hard working person regardless of their place in life.

5. Neil A.

   August 10, 2007 at 12:52

   5

   @Cork – I think it might be a tad harsh to say that Sydney Anglican Churches have created an artificial divide between vocational Christian ministry and all others.
   There certainly has been a push to encourage full time, vocational ministry in recent years, but that’s because we are running behind in the demand for such people! That demand is coming from mission organisations, para-church ministries (chaplaincies, welfare bodies), etc, and local churches (not just in Sydney Diocese, but across the country).

   If there is a perception that non-vocational ministry is regarded as inferior in some way, it would be good to try and pin-point the source of such perceptions so it can be corrected. You will certainly never here me ‘put down’ anyone seeking to serve God in volunteer roles at church, or at their workplace, uni, school, wherever.
   But you will also hear me work towards and pray that God would continue to raise up godly men and women to train and work in vocational ministry.

   There will always be tension when it comes to splitting our time and energy between different ways of serving God (acknowledging Josh’s comments here). We have to be prayerful and thoughtful when working these things out.
   But remember, most people need encouraging/gentle pushing/urging, etc to get into doing specific serving roles, because our sinful tendency is not to do those things.
   Some of this crosses over to some of Sam’s thinking in his post here

6. Steven N

   August 13, 2007 at 11:04

   6

   If you want to know where the artificial divide is – it is created/perpetuated every time people identify “vocational ministry” with full time Christian ministry as Neil has done in his response. Why cannot a trade or profession be a vocational ministry? Surely Joseph as prime minister of Egypt was in vocational ministry – he was doing exactly what God wanted him to do with his gifts.

   I actually think some of the divide is a carry over from the pre-reformation period where monastic life was seen as far more important than work (tied up with ideas of merit). Luther and Calvin did a lot to change that and elevate work.

   On Josh’s main point he could look at Robert Banks “the Complete Book of Everyday Christianity” http://www.ivmdl.org/cbec.cfm and google theology of everyday life.

   On the work “hard” point made by Josh – when I was at Uni I invited two young solicitors who were working in the same firm in different sections to talk about the difference their committment to Christ makes in their workplace. One shared how she felt God was best glorified by working harder than everyone else and doing the very best that she could at work. She was working over 70 hours a week. She had no time for anything else but she prided herself on still getting to Church on Sunday. But there were also a lot of other people who had no committment to Christ who worked even longer hours and even harder. A Christian partner in the firm chastised young lawyers who went home before he did and he did not leave until 9-10pm each night. The other lawyer did not work as hard – she took her lunch hour to build up relationships with her co-workers. She invited them along to outreach events. She was concerned about the fact that the amount of work she was doing made it difficult for her to get to her homegroup. She was always looking for the opportunity to share Christ with her co-workers – she saw that as part of the reason God had put her in that firm.

   Which lawyer was being salt and light in their workplace?

7. Josh Maule

   August 14, 2007 at 12:15

   7

   I use the term work “hard”, basically to mean, not slacking off. And personally I think working 70 hours a week and not having time to do anything else is a little over the top, and wouldn’t allow much time for non-work/non-client relationships. And I tend to think that relationships are important for Christians.

   It looks like work was the most important thing for the Christian partner who criticised those who went home before him. Clearly he saw his job as important and doing it well as a way of demonstrating his faith in Jesus (which I don’t object to), but was it was taking the driver’s seat in his life?

   Unless the other lawyer was a slacker at work, she sounds like she was living out her faith in a really effective way. She obviously has Christ, and sharing him, as a priority in life. And building relationships with others as a priority. Rather than work being the most important thing in her life – Jesus is.

   We should work hard at whatever we do, but working your guts out is the best way to honour God. Work should be balanced with relationships.

   Others?

8. Josh Maule

   August 14, 2007 at 12:21

   8

   Correction for above comment: “We should work hard at whatever we do, but working your guts out is not the best way to honour God.”

9. The Phatman (Neil A)

   August 14, 2007 at 05:58

   9

   Stephen, you said:
   “If you want to know where the artificial divide is – it is created/perpetuated every time people identify “vocational ministry” with full time Christian ministry as Neil has done in his response. Why cannot a trade or profession be a vocational ministry? Surely Joseph as prime minister of Egypt was in vocational ministry – he was doing exactly what God wanted him to do with his gifts.”

   But I think you misunderstand me.
   I actually argued in that comment that “You will certainly never here me ‘put down’ anyone seeking to serve God in volunteer roles at church, or at their workplace, uni, school, wherever.”

   So what would you like to call the role that some people do: that of being paid an amount of money so they are free to serve the body of Christ as a pastor/teacher?
   Argue all you like, you have to call them something.

   Joseph was certainly serving God, but it was a different role to the pastor/teacher that we have modelled in the N.T. By people like Paul and Timothy and others. The role I was referring to when I use the term ‘vocational ministry’.

   The N.T. is pretty clear that for the church to thrive and grow there needs to be people who can give more of their time to pastoring/teaching than possible when working in another role full-time. Why despise that?

   Josh was right when he encouraged us to serve wholeheartedly wherever we find ourselves. For some that will be making sacrifices to train and work full time as a pastor/teacher, for others it will be work and give financial support to keep those pastor/teachers working at what they do.
   It’s not an ‘artificial divide’, it’s a simple matter of roles…

10. Steven N

    August 19, 2007 at 10:14

    10

    Well Neil you can call it being a rector/curate/youth worker/church administrator/pastor Those are the titles that are given the positions. But when you elevate it as being “vocational” ministry and other work as not being a calling by God (by implication) then you do create/perpetuate the divide. You can create/perpetuate a divide one by putting down (which I accept you say you do not do) but the other way is by elevating. I suggest you are doing the latter with “fulltime Christian ministry”. The title itself implies that full time ministry – vocational ministry as you describe it is something God calls us to but a profession/trade is not (by implication because you do not apply the title to that).

    I do not despise people being called to the role of pastor/teacher/elder on a fulltime basis and taking up a position of a rector or pastor of a church. I do note that Paul engaged in a trade as well as his ministry at times because strategically it was better for him to do so. Jesus presumably was learning to be a carpenter for the greater part of his life before he was (in your model) called to vocational ministry. But for those first thirty years he was doing what God wanted, where God wanted – was that not vocational ministry?

    But getting back to the point of the term “calling” – that is the important thing – that we are doing what God wants us to do where he wants us to do it. That is the priority – that is what we should be bringing before him in prayer. Our vocational ministry may be lawyer, carpenter, doctor etc or pastor but it should be what God has called us to do. It is likely the case that God will call us to do several different “ministries” during our life and hopefully we will in answer to His call. After all I was told when I lead a home group that I was responsible for the pastoral care of those in the group and I was also a teacher – so I was fulfilling the role of pastor and teacher. Now I do not lead a home group I am not in the pastor role but I still teach and as the chair of a Christian organisation I exercise the administrative gifts God has given me. Why – because I believe that is what God has called me to do at this time.

    On a lighter point I have often thought that the best job for a person who is gifted as an evangelist (sharing the Gospel) in our modern world is either as a dentist, or a hairdresser – after all you always listen to someone who has a sharp object next to your head or in your mouth. It is not as if you are going to get up and go somewhere else.

11. TrevorC

    August 20, 2007 at 10:22

    11

    This is a first for me! I have never contributed to an online discussion
    before,but here goes.

    The exchange of views has been very interesting but a
    few issues stand out.

    Neil I noted your comment in reply to Stephen’s first entry,about volunteer roles in church etc.That comment actually helps identify an important issue.Does the clerical community accept that lay people, who are seeking to live godly lives day to day (whether in their secular work, families etc.)are following a calling of equal value in the eyes of God to men and women who work as a rector, curate, youth worker etc who seek ( in their paid employment,families etc.) to lead godly lives? Does our Diocese teach that there is some special merit in the eyes of God if a person takes on the role of a paid rector,curate,evangelist etc.?I am very Interested in your answer to that question,given that your original comment related only to the “ministry” component of a lay person’s life.

    Perhaps part of the problem as I see it is that our Diocese is not very good at teaching about vocation in any context other than that of paid employment as a parish or Diocesan employee. The clear inference that I have drawn over many years (listening to the way in which paid employment by the Diocese is presented ) is that if a person does not become such an employee (or a missionary or other mission type worker ) then that person has chosen something second best from God’s perspective.

    What does God require of each of us? Surely the answer is clearly given in Micah 6:8. We are called to act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God. The church has not been good at helping the people of God work out what that means for lay Christians in the 21st century. Stephen is correct. We need more help and teaching to identify how lay people should live in 21st century Australia, so that do fulfil God’s calling to be a distinctive community,His salt and light,in this world.We need more specific teaching on these issues and encouragement to address them, from each other and from our leaders.

    God does not call us initially to be a curate or a lawyer, he calls us into relationship with himself. He calls us to holiness. My suggestion is that we do not give nearly enough emphasis to this in our teaching or in our encouragement of one another.

    Our paid vocation, the work that we choose to do should flow out of that relationship, as we faithfully respond to God’s calling to us.

12. The Phatman (Neil A)

    August 23, 2007 at 03:57

    12

    Stephen, you said:
    “Well Neil you can call it being a rector/curate/youth worker/church administrator/pastor Those are the titles that are given the positions. But when you elevate it as being “vocational” ministry and other work as not being a calling by God (by implication) then you do create/perpetuate the divide.“

    Sorry, I think we are getting unnecessarily tangled with words and definitions here.
    I was using the word ‘vocational’ simply to differentiate between people like me, who are supported financially in order to be able to devote more time to being a pastor/teacher, and people who also may minister in Word ministries, like myself but on a part-time non-renumerated basis.
    Is that clearer? A good friend of mine recently wrote:

    All Christians are ministers because we are all servants of the gospel and of the Lord Jesus.
    But some Christians should consider becoming ministers of God’s Word, because Word ministry is the key to helping the church grow.
    In the N.T., Jesus grew his church and established his Kingdom through the teaching and preaching of the Word (Mark 1:14-15). He also appointed people to do it with him and for him (Luke 10 1-9).
    In Matt 28:18-20 he gives his ‘appointed ones’ the task of continuing the job, taking the Word to the rest of the world.
    Paul tells us how the risen Jesus provided apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to do this work (Eph 4:8-16).
    The whole flow of the rest of the N.T. points in one direction: Christians who have been given the ability to teach God’s Word should work out how to use their gift for the benefit of the church.
    Not every Christian will have the incredible blessing of being paid to conduct this ministry full time. But because it’s God’s appointed way of growing his church, appropriately gifted people should ask themselves the question: “Why shouldn’t I aim to do Word ministry full time?” And our churches should do all they can to help them work through that question in thoughtful practical ways, for the glory of God.

    I’m not sure where the word ‘calling’ came into this. Funnily enough, I have never experienced such thing, and I never speak of it in the sense that it is commonly used. ;-)

    I have NO problem whatsoever with the concept that all Christian people everywhere need to be serving God to their fullest extent wherever they are. Which is exactly why I will keep on encouraging, supporting and helping to equip suitably gifted and qualified (1 Tim 2-3, Titus 2) people for full-time Word ministry, as well as encouraging, supporting and helping to equip suitably gifted and qualified people for non full-time Word ministries.

    I could go on, and I might, but in a fresh article.

13. The Phatman (Neil A)

    August 23, 2007 at 04:14

    13

    Trevor, you ask:
    “Does the clerical community accept that lay people, who are seeking to live godly lives day to day (whether in their secular work, families etc.)are following a calling of equal value in the eyes of God to men and women who work as a rector, curate, youth worker etc who seek ( in their paid employment,families etc.) to lead godly lives?”

    The answer is: of course! I personally have never suggested anything else. There is “no special merit” in the eyes of God when it comes to taking on a a paid ministry role.

    Then you ask: “Does our Diocese teach that there is some special merit in the eyes of God if a person takes on the role of a paid rector,curate,evangelist etc.?”

    I have never heard our Diocese or it’s representatives suggest that people not choosing paid ministry of the Word are somehow second rate.
    What I have heard is much encouragement for appropriately gifted people to ask themselves the question: “Why shouldn’t I aim to do Word ministry full time?”. And I can see no problem at with that.
    It doesn’t imply anything about people to whom that question doesn’t apply. But for those that it does, human nature being what it is, we often need a kick in the pants to help us think through these big, life-altering issues. ;-)

    You said: “God does not call us initially to be a curate or a lawyer, he calls us into relationship with himself. He calls us to holiness. My suggestion is that we do not give nearly enough emphasis to this in our teaching”
    I couldn’t agree more! Except that I would hope you heard the call to holiness that echoed all through the recent series at FNC on the Sermon on the Mount. ;-)

    Hope that helps clarify my thinking…

14. Steven N

    August 28, 2007 at 08:05

    14

    I think the phrase “vocational ministry” was used by Andrew and adopted by Neil A. If you were to paraphrase it, then you would use the service of God you are called to by God. The problem occurs when you use it exclusively in relation to person who is in Neil’s position – full time paid servants. By using it in this way then I think you do create a divide. Language matters. Teachers of the Word should be more conscious of this than anybody.

    I know people who are gifted bible teaches but frankly would make hopeless pastors – so unless someone wanted to pay them fulltime just to teach they would not get fulltime employment in a church. I would hope people who are gifted teachers of God’s word would ask how can I best serve God. But that may not necessarily be in full time pastoral work. It may be as a “tent-maker” overseas. Probably the best preacher at All Souls Langham Place is a fellow who is a High Court judge. Law was his calling to serve God and he has a strategic impact and opportunities to speak that many pastors do not. I would consider his to be a vocational ministry. Justice Ken Handley in NSW is a similar case – he has had many opportunities to speak on evidence of Christianity and the resurrection because of his legal background.

    I have heard many ministers, encourage, exhort people to go into full time ministry or missionary work but I have heard little discussion about what it means to be called to serve God in any other context – ie the way most of us do in a profession or occupation. Groups such as Christians in the Media may be addressing this but I have not seen it addressed at a local church level. In part it is the lack of balance that creates that impression (whether it is intended) that elevates full time service as a pastor/evangelist etc.

    I suspect if you look at the graduates of the MMMTS scheme we only seem to consider as “success” graduates who go on to “missionary” or theological college” etc. What about those who become or continue as teachers, librarians etc. Again the nature of the scheme is geared toward training people to undertake full time ministry as pastor/youth worker etc. Where is the equivalent scheme directed to those who will go into other occupations and professions?

    By all means encourage gifted people to consider whether God is calling them to serve Him as a pastor etc but you should be encouraging us all to be serving God where God wants us to serve Him.